Funny stuff. Call it "ogg format" and they really can't do anything, and you get your point across.

I worry about this too.. Firefox is already kinda becoming a bit-BEAST, seems like building in the code for audio and video decoding just adds more and more bulk? First off all, it's a lot to just do... That's why we have mplayer, VLC, Xine, Totem and gstreamer, etc etc.

Though the flip side is, if we don't build it in, the plugin method would have to be controlled by the browser makers, and then prompted users to install them right on install. Cuz we want everyone to be able to play back the theora.
-Chris

I think a lot of people see the idea that the ogg formats are OSS and just assume that they must be better because of it. This is simply not true. Vorbis and Theora are terrible formats. Nothing supports them (outside of jukebox software on Linux). There is no native support for ogg formats on Wndows or OS X. Linux is the only place they have any foothold at all. Sure they may be open source, but I do not care one single bit. I want my audio and video to look good. OSS means absolutely squat if what I'm watching/listening to looks/sounds like crap.

So the question is, if H.264 and AAC require royalties, who has to pay them? If we're talking about browsers supporting a codec, then I'm assuming the browser developer has to pay it, not the end user or any middleman. So how much would it really cost for Mozilla or Opera or Apple or Microsoft to include support for H.264 and AAC? That way, if they really want to do this, then they have a good codec setup and the <video> and <audio> tags can really shine. Apple and Microsoft would have no problem with this since they already pay licensing fees for codecs that are included in their operating systems and iPods/iPhones/Zunes/etc.

I honestly don't think the <video> tag is going to be what it's cracked up to be. Sure, it'll be around and people can add video and audio to a page just as easily as they do an image. But Flash already has a hold of web video. It's more flexible and more customizable. I think it's important for browsers to support adding video and audio without a plugin. But I don't think it's going to do away with plugin media players. Especially if there isn't an efficient and high quality codec behind it.

These are must-reads on the quality of the Theora codec:
http://people.xiph.org/~greg/video/ytco ... rison.html
http://people.xiph.org/~maikmerten/youtube/

And concerning the flexibility, and customizability, you're dead wrong. Check these out:
http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/06/connec ... ml5-video/
http://blog.mozbox.org/post/2009/04/12/ ... nvas-Video

As for Windows and OS X support,

Windows: FFdshow http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow/ , Xiph's DirectShow filters http://www.xiph.org/dshow/ , not to mention vlc and mplayer

OS X: Xiph quicktime components http://www.xiph.org/quicktime/

There's plenty out there. It's actually in pretty good shape.

So I've taken it on as a challenge to find a professional level application that supports Theora..

Here is my thinking:

For <video> to take off using Ogg/Theora then the bulk of editors and content producers using pro-range apps need to be able to encode as Theora.

I can't find one.. I see a way to hack Theora encoding support into Final Cut Studio using the QuickTime component linked above, but using that breaks Qmaster based Network encoding, so that means a massive performance hit... Not ideal, and makes it another road block for a struggling format.

So what about Adobe's creative suite? After Effects is like the #1 animation and effects Compositing app, and it uses Adobe Media Encoder to output video... No support for OGG here. tons of formats, no theora, no vorbis.

So these are both very common pro-video production suites, that cost over $2,500 that don't support Theora...

Alright.. Maybe a standalone encoder that is marketed as a utility that is just kick ass and video encoding, supports everything... Something like Sorenson Squeeze, known as "the gold standard" for video encoding. Considered one of the best of the best in all aspects.

Negative on the Theora support, not even via plugins...

Telestream also makes a range of products called "Episode" (Episode Pro, Desktop, etc) for dedicated video encoding, the entry level version costs $500, dubbed as supporting "100s of video and audio formats".... Again no Theora.

Now we all know that a little oggenc or or ffmpeg command line lovin will bang us out a vorbis or theora, no problem! There's even a few decent GUI apps for the Mac (I really find nothing for Windows... VLC sucks so hard, always screws up). The thing is, nothing that fits into the existing work flow of editors supports OGG.

So for real true video editors (not just hollywood guys, Rev3, Mevio, etc etc) they are going to have to continue to support h.264, WMV, and whatever else with tools that all inter-operate with their work flow, and then... After they are done working for hours and all the automated encoding of the formats they support today are done.. They are going to have to create some new, not as easy or efficient, process to encode theora.

I think that is such a big issue, that it essentially makes the entire thing a done deal. Theora will not take off because support for it is not at the fingertips of the people who are making the videos...

-Chris

For Windows: MediaCoder is a GUI app that lets you encode to Ogg Theora, far more reliably than others.

About Mac: XiphQT isn't a hack, its a genuine QuickTime component to provide support for Ogg formats. The only thing is that XiphQT isn't exactly well tested yet and debugged. People are working on it. Until fairly recently, XiphQT hasn't really seen much work done on it.

Ah yes, MediaCoder... It outputs crap. I don't know why.. But time and time I get worse quality using MediaCoder.. But again, the main point of my post there is, pro workflows don't use these types of apps.

Adobe After Effects guys are going go to use Adobe Media Encoder, or Squeeze, or etc. The apps that integrate into the Application Suite they use. The apps that let them encode to their destination formats from a loss-less source format.

XiphQT - I don't think it is a hack, but it does not work with a Qmaster encode cluster. Which a Final Cut editor is going to be using. Even if that editor is encoding only on their own local box and not over the network, you still end up using Qmaster because it is more effective in the way it breaks up the encode job in even a dual core rig. But most actual production work using Final Cut tends to do the Network rendering, because it is deeeead easy and does not even require Final Cut be on the other nodes in the render cluster.

The only solution for them is to do all their work in an integrated suite of applications that can send data back and forth between each other (like Pixel Ratio, color depth, Alpha channel info) that all support working from a loss-less codec and encoding directly... Then once the finish encoding h.264, WMV, MPEG4, Flash, and so on, then they'll need to render out to a super high-res file that which even standalone encoder they are using to create a vorbis file has support for.

And then encode from that lossy codec to a Theora file...

Things are a bit better in Final Cut land, as being a QuickTime component allows for direct export from Final Cut, but even then... Do we really expect that a busy editor with deadlines is going to spend the massive time to have Final Cut sit there encoding a file via a QuickTime component, to then after that export out to Compressor where it will do all the other formats with Qmaster support? Doubtful.

I am not saying it can't be done, I do it every episode... I am sayin, there is not a professional work flow that I know of today that incorporates encoding to Theora... And that is a really big blocker in my eyes to getting the massive web-wide support needed for <video> to end up meaning Theora..

The way it's goin, <video> is just going to mean it MIGHT be theora, but is prolly h.264.

Heck, even Microsoft is throwing in the towel and adding direct h.264 support into Silverlight 3. So now a editor can simply export in one format, h.264 and he supports Flash 9+ players, Silverlight 3 players, nearly all desktops on the web, and iPhones and iPods, Playstation 3s, Xbox 360s, etc etc.. In one single format.

So that's where h.264 is at today... And Theroa.. Well, it's stuck at getting support in pro apps.. And all of this does not even address the fact that Theora/VP2 sucks as a codec compared to... Well a lot. And ya the new improved patches of Theora make amazing strides, but the current certified 1.0 release of Theora is BUTT compared to WMV, VC-1, h.264, x.264 and even Xvid and Divix. What makes things worse is some of the Theora peeps think that some of these new improvements to the codec that people are trying out may not be clear of patent issues. Yikes - That's the wrong direction!

-Chris

Propably not the best thread for this, but ...

The status of Thusnelda has been updated: Theora: Thusnelda project update 20090820